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2 tracks – house of love and born + raised – meeting industry standard?
hey folks!
i’m back on the board after nearly a year excited to contribute where i can and have two tracks that feel near complete.
these are just my second and third tracks doing everything on my own (minus a cellist via soundbetter), and i learned so so much from you all on the first one – @Dana melodyne is an absolute GAME CHANGER). so i’m back for more!
primary question: in the realm of soft indie pop / singer songwriter – do these track make the cut in terms of production and mastering – where do i need to improve to get closer to “industry standard?” in particular i’m aiming for sync licensing opportunities.
i know i could keep going on these tinkering and learning new plugins, and whatnot, but i think i’ve taken them as far as i can given my current skillset. hence me asking for this awesome community for honest feedback.
thank you thank you in advance!
nate
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28 Replies
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Wudup, @nategomoon! Ooh, can’t wait to dive into these hot fresh tracks – will listen tonight or tomorrow and circle back! 🤘 Thanks for sharing with us all!
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Many thanks, Dana! Uploading a fresher version of born + raised and posting here (and deleted the old version above). very fine tinkering on things i was hearing the past few days. appreciate the listens, and support, as always!
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Thanks for your patience, @nategomoon – beautiful work, man! After making this vid I re-read your original post and realize now that the cello was (an excellent) SoundBetter hire. 💪 Hope my ramble-y thoughts are helpful! Great job! 👏
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wow @Dana – so grateful for your listens, the vid even (!) and all these insights – every single one is very illuminating to me. and indeed, i’m very excited to jump back into this over the weekend and refine, to help the song shine.
two quick follow ups: noting that the distortion in the intro and ending builds was intentional, to elevate the intensity. that being said, if you as the listener question the choice, that feels like a distraction. any suggestions on that other than adding some distortion for the whole part so it seems more intentional (would rather not take it away)?
also wanted to give props to the cellist – yoed nir, who was fantastic to work with. i hired him for just the cello part and he came back with the full string section for the chorus (and bridge which i ended up not using), for no extra cost. such a dream to hear to a melody played like that (first time ever for strings for me). highly recommend if you ever need such a dynamic, versatile player! https://soundbetter.com/profiles/3305-yoed-nir
multiple mahalos, dana. i’m truly honored by the deep attention you gave the track, and humbled by your appreciation for it. quite a boost!
– nate
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This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: correction
soundbetter.com
Yoed Nir is a Yamaha Performing Artist, Apogee Artist, DPA Artist & D'Addario Artist. He has performed in such storied venues as Radio City Music Hall, London’s Royal Albert Hall, the Sydney Opera House, Carnegie Hall, Alice Tully Hall, and … Continue reading
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Yay- So glad u enjoyed the vid, Nate! And wow, Yoed … what a gem. Incredible SoundBetter score right there! Thanks for sharing his link too ⚡️ gonna keep that handy. Feel free to fwd this link to him so he can enjoy the accolades and become a part of the community if he’d like (he’d just need to make an account to access Member Spotlight).
Anywho, I look forward to hearing your mix updates! Oh also, I think the distortion @ the intro/outro is fine – a cool concept! I only mentioned in case it was unintentional.
Have a great weekend!
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Thanks Dana! I made some progress on this incorporating all your tips, now fine tuning the non-compressed levels and reverb. I also got a little sidetracked on another track with moments of inspiration and excited to share that one, not sure how soon but near future, hopefully. Thanks again for the ongoing encouragement.
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Heck yeah, homey! Look fwd to hearing what you’re cookin’ up! ⚡️
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This reply was modified 3 months, 3 weeks ago by
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Dana,
Wow, a video response is so cool. Quick, to the point, immediate reactions without the overthinking that can occur in written responses. Other educators might charge money for that sort of high-def video / highly-intelligible wisdom. Not suggesting that, just saying thx for that effort.
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Awe, thank you, Paul! At some point I’ll have my web/tech act together enough to formalize certain features as part of a paid plan. But until then, I’m just trying to figure out the best, most useful way to share info and invite discussion. ☺️ And I find myself gravitating toward video cause sometimes it just feels easier to talk than to type! haha.
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Nate,
Welcome back. Glad to hear the muse was visiting.
I only dug into House of Love before offering up this an observation or two. I’m in the good habit of listening first and then digging out the tools from the toolbox to verify if my technical instincts are correct. That allows me to listen musically/emotionally first. (Good God man, you sound like Oprah!) editor’s note
The song came across LOUD. Aggressive rock and roll loud. Measured at -8.5LUFS.
The song came across a bit crunchy. I think the piece is aiming more towards gratitude rather than the rebelliousness the kids have later on. They’re cute as hell early on but then they grow up to be teenagers. My True Peak sample metering read well into the red, +2.87dB above 0. That’ll make it crunchy. In fact, the fancy RX 11 metering suspected 200+ possible clipped samples. It definitely sound better/less stressful/musical after the de-clipping process.
Let’s not forget that the mere conversion from your (I’m assuming) high-quality wav file to an MP3 that Mix P has as its file format can cause overs and crunchiness to appear out of seemingly thin air. I’m wondering if you mastered it HOT at 0dB True Peak and the wav to MP3 conversion process is somewhat responsible for your foray into the dark side.
My frequency domain observations….
I hear a low freq explosive at the top. I can’t tell if it’s caused by an edit of the piano or literally a P-pop on the vocal mic. I’m leaning to the latter because my ears say that’s a tonally dark sounding voice AND because my spectrum analyzer (frequency vs amplitude) shows more amplitude at 40 Hz than it does at 2kHz. That shouldn’t be.
To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen from a 1988 Vice Presidential debate, “I mixed Barry White with 40 Hz, and you sir are no Barry White!”
There’s a pretty big buildup at 300ish Hz. There’s only a couple elements to the song but they are surely hard to acoustically separate from each other for my ears.
I trust my ears, I trust my measurements, and I trust that you can sort out any of these unintended quirks and get this piece equally good as your previous offerings.
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Great insights AND stories as always, Paul – you rule! Also, I don’t know the presidential debate reference … was that a real quote? LOL – amazing. 😂
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Historically, it’s accurate. There was a VP debate with those words spoken and yes, I utilized a sub-harmonic synthesis on Barry’s spoken words. Paraphrasing and diversion are such effective ingredients in my secret sauce (thank you Nate) for storytelling.
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i trust your ears and instruments too, paul! ongoing gratitude for your listens, rigor and extra special sauce commentary (i LOVE reading what your words!). you’ve definitively pointed me in the right direction fortunately quick, easy fixes, and its sounds so much better already.
a) the limiter gain was set too high (i was losing perspective, cause i was aiming for loud cause I get suckered into the louder just sounds better paradigm, even if not right for this song.
b) at the top was indeed a pop that i missed. i had forgotten to cut the low end off the vocal.
c) and bonus for the comment on the 300 build up.i’ll be tinkering some more over the next few days including testing out a few mastering settings, and will circle back so you can hear the maybe, hopefully final version.
multiple mahalos!
nate
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Can’t wait to hear your progress on these gems, Nate! It got too late for me to make a vid for the other song, but I think @-PT got ya sorted with some great suggestions, yay! Keep up the great work man!
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alright, alright. took me a little bit, but i’m back with quite possibly the finals of both these.🤞
since you were invested and interested, i’d welcome one more listen to help me know how I landed on all your tips – particularly for any last fine points before i put these nuggets out into the world! understand you have a ton of others things to do too. @-PT you too!
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: tagged paul
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Oh schnapp! Gonna listen in the studio tomorrow (fri) – thanks for sharing, man, lookin fwd to hearing your progress!
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Soooo much better, Nate! Great work on both of these – they’ve really come a long way!!
My tiny thought on Born and Raised is perhaps the cello has a touch too much airy top-end on it, especially noticed in the cello intro. You could try dialing back whatever top eq you have on the cello and see if it warms up a touch. Or not! Sounds good as-is too 🙂
2 things on House of Love:
- I heard a tiny little edit or automation bump at 2:12 on the piano
- There’s still a bit of that comb-filtered vocal sound- usually due to vocal bleed in the piano mics needing a bit of time alignment with the vocal mic.
Were the vocal and piano performed simultaneously? If so, you could try plugins like SoundRadix Auto-Align or UAD Little Labs IBP; or you could zoom in and look at the waveforms, find a vocal entrance or accent that’s visible in both the vocal mic and piano mics waveforms, then nudge the vocal mic audio files later to match the piano vocal bleed (you could also leave the vocal audio files where they are on the timeline and delay their output by inserting a simple delay plugin on the vocal channel to compensate for the difference. Just make sure your delay is set to milliseconds, and choose one that doesn’t color the sound.)
If you’re lost or unsure what I’m blathering on about, lol, you’re welcome to send me a link to your dry piano and vocal multitrack files and perhaps I can do a quick video demonstration 🙂
Again though.. amazing work, @nategomoon! Huge progress! Keep it up!
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many thanks, Dana – especially for the lightning fast feedback!
on House of Love – the piano is actually recorded live as midi, and not recorded at the same time. So the combed-mic sound….could be the original source, perhaps? I thought I had enough sound proofing in my environment – i believe it’s the same set up as born + raised, but maybe there were some minor adjustments. but in related topic, i know for sure the piano doesn’t line up with the vocal perfectly in several moments. i didn’t record to a click track on purpose, for the vibe. but maybe that’s not the issue, or is it? Any other causes diagnosis or ideas on how to correct for it now?
will check out the automation issue.
and born + raised. cello – easy fix! i added a little airy right at the end, but am to now thinking otherwise.
so many mahalos, Dana! so grateful for all your support and time.
nate
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: added a note
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Oh interesting re vocal sound! Is it the same mic and input chain you used for Born and Raised? If so, my next question is: are you applying the reverb as an insert or a send?
If your reverb plugin is inserted directly on the vocal track, that might be causing the sound I’m hearing… 🤷🏻♂️
Try using an aux send on the vocal track to send a bit of it to an aux return. Insert your reverb on the aux return and set the mix/blend knob to 100% wet. That way you’ll hear your dry vocal, unadulterated, plus the reverb added to it by way of the send/return path.
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the sleuthing continues! the vocals is on an aux send, rather than direct. it wasn’t on 100% (was -10db), so i upped it and then adjusted the send and bounced. see attached. not sure if it sounds any different. is what you’re hearing a kind of tinny quality? if not, as an aside something i’ve been wondering about with reverb, how to avoid it.
in case you still hear it, i’ve attached the raw vocal no reverb or bpb saturation plugin, as well as just no reverb, and a screenshot of the reverb setting to see if maybe it’s the either the source or that plugin or the reverb.
thanks for sticking with me on this, dana!
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: added a not about the screenshot
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by
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Nate,
attached is your dry vocal with a different sounding verb to hopefully illustrate my point
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by
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Nate,
I love that you included the downloadable stand alone dry vocal, the saturated vocal, and the souped up version. That makes the detective-work a lot easier. The non reverberated ones sound clean and great. There’s a beautiful warmth to your voice and it works very well in this musically stripped down piece of hopefulness and positivity. However, the voice in context of this mix is swimming in the soup to my ear. Bear in mind I have strong opinions. I don’t much like reverb at all. Also, I voted for Trump. I don’t think that’s controversial at all. Clearly he was the most qualified to earn my write-in choice for local dog catcher.
I suspect the reverb choice you made is interfering with the tone of your vocal performance. It sounds like a tight and bright percussion plate. (???) The graphic appears to be a frequency response graph with no high pass or low pass filters engaged on an otherwise flat wide-band response. All that lingering high-mid and high end does not compliment the warmth and fuzziness of the song the way a medium-sized hall program might.
As always, go with the suggestions that resonate with you and leave the rest. They’re not all spot on. After all, my boy didn’t win.
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Just what I needed, Paul! Your reminder of the low-pass for reverb. Not sure why the default settings in Space Designer don’t have it, cause it was a “medium sweet room.” The EQ is tucked away at the top righthand corner, so hiding from me.
Context – I’m trying sound of me and the piano maybe 20 feet from you in the living room as you open the door. Maybe we’re just moving in, so there is limited furniture, hence a little more bounce. Note I am a sucker for reverb. Fleet Foxes are one of my favorite bands, so I’m going a little heavier on it than your sample and preference (thank you!).
What do you think – did I hit the mark at least in intent (strong reverb opinions aside)? I kept tinkering with the filter range and this seemed about right, but maybe still a little something not quite (in parts feel like the room gets smaller) that I can’t figure out how to resolve.
If only dog catcher! 🙃
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This reply was modified 3 months ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: correcting for grammar
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Nate,
It’s a room alright. Perhaps that room needs a little acoustic dampening to control the resonant 500 Hz area to keep the focus on the actual vocal performance Does the sound of a crackling fire in the fireplace add to your intent?
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This reply was modified 3 months ago by
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by
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Thanks for uploading those files, @nategomoon, and for your sonic reference (sound coming from a person playing in a room, some distance away from the listener, plus Fleet Foxes vibes) – super helpful context and totally doable with your source tracks.
You might try bussing your vocal AND piano into a stereo aux “ROOM” track and apply a room simulating plugin on that aux. Then, for a realistic “in the room with the player” vibe, you could keep the room plugin at 100% wet and simply adjust the plugin controls related to distance and size, bringing the listener closer or farther away from the performance… within the reverb interface.
For the Fleet Foxes reverb, I would add that as an aux send from the individual vocal/piano tracks, returning on its own aux return. That way you’ll be sending dry voc/pno to the Fleet Foxes verb and not a roomy-sounding source (tho you could experiment with that too!).
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aha, interesting! didn’t know there was a room simulation plugin, on top of reverb. cool, will see what comes. loving these tips – learning so much. THANK YOU!
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My pleasure, man! Altiverb is amazing for lots of actual sampled living rooms and real spaces (and has tons of real halls and stadiums too). Waves IR reverb has this too but a less intuitive graphic interface. Logic may have its own Impulse Response reverb as well – not sure. But i find for realistic sounding rooms IR verbs are the way to go. I use UAD Ocean Way plugin a lot for this too but it definitely sounds more like a professional recording studio than a room in a regular house. Have fun!
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