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old new maps – mix feedback
hey all! first time posting here and also a newbie at self producing. i shared this song with @dana about a month ago, and i made some additional changes, ready to share again, as i think i’ve reached my ceiling.
looking for honest feedback mainly on the mix but open to considerations on production too. there a few spots where i feel i could probably keep tinkering and even adding parts, but looking for fresh ears to help in this next phase to elevate it. the mix has a a very simple mastering from the built-in “mastering” plug-in.other context: i’m trying to get this as close to “industry standard” as i can on my own with the limited gear, time and budget i have right now, ideally finalizing in the next week or so to release in september. that being said, i’m willing to delay release if this is way off. i’m wanting to hear those honest takes!
i’m using logic pro and only embedded plug-ins and very basic setup – SM58 and Rode NT1 into a Scarlett Focusrite and sometimes running the mics through a Boss RC 505, as well as electric piano. This song includes a drumkit recorded with just the one Rode. i’m also set on sourcing original sounds that I could recreate live, even if with heavy effects.thank you kindly in advance. so grateful to join this community!
nate
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12 Replies
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Nate,
Superb offering first time up to bat. I think your feedback will be overwhelmingly positive.
Drums sound great regardless of the number of mics. Minimalist approach worked tonally with the low end vocal and the KB bass with swerve on it. BGV layers are so tasteful. The opening is killer. It might even be a bit too much in your face. It feels like a separate piece of music it’s so strong.
I would try -3dB down to get closer to match the impact of the actual vocal starting spot. Also that sidestick/snare/percussive element is stealing the show early on when in my mind, the spotlight ought to be on the vocal arrangement. During the verses that percussive element might be more interesting if it were not repetitive. I’d try 2 and 4 on the verses, and your current 2, 4 AND for the B part. The song is sparse so help the listener find new, treasures to hang onto and enjoy.
The vocals are intriguing but feel a little under represented at times and confused when the delayed repeat is as full frequency range as the original. Dull the repeats to avoid high freqs demanding our attention.
I want more of your vocal magic, not the whistler guy.
That half time section at 1:20 is very effective, it’s open sounding and efficient while deep grooving. Try dropping the echoing vocal to help us find the drop after the build up. Things get a little busy for my taste. If you shoot the whistling guy you’d have more sonic space to feature the BGV. I love the vocal texture that much to sacrifice the whistler. Maybe feature whistler guy in the next song.
I enjoy the song and playing the “What if” game. These are all just my observations to make it cleaner, more accessible, and better if I had the talent to make what you’ve already made.
Carry on, and metaphorically speaking, carry off the whistler and bury him somewhere in the woods.
PT
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Nate!! Stoked you’re here, man – thanks so much for sharing this awesome track with us! And, wow, this has come a long way since I last heard it – excellent work!
I agree with lots of @-PT‘s instincts (tho I am not as anti-whistler as he, lol). The main overarching things I hear are:
- Heck yeah, louder vocals please! You sound great – let those vocals be loud and proud
- The delay on the vocal is cool, but you could probably a) automate the delay so it’s louder in some areas (based on featured moments and lyrics) and more subtle in others, just for variety and clarity; and b) like Paul mentioned you could try EQ’ing out the high frequencies of the Delay FX return so that the delay is darker/mellower than the raw vocal. This is a common trick to allow the vocal to remain clear and intelligible even when swimming in delay effects.
- The clap backbeats feel like they’re the loudest thing in the mix at the moment. I’d try turning those down and turning the vocal up.
- LOVE the low vocal bass stuff and octaver vocals – very unique production and sound!
- As Paul mentioned, I agree it’d be cool to experiment with a simpler beat or backbeat for the verses. I have some ideas but too difficult to type – much easier to demonstrate on video or audio (perhaps later when I’m back in town – on fam vacay at the moment w laptop trusty Audio Technica headphones)
- Also as Paul mentioned, the track might come on a bit too loud in the intro. I mean … loud is good! … as long as the arrangement can sustain it through to the end. What I mean is, just make sure IF the beginning of the song is hella loud, make sure the end of the song (or wherever the climax occurs) is EVEN LOUDER! For more info on how I structure loudness and build it into a mix, check out the “Find the Drama” tip in my 5 Mix Power Tips pdf. 🤘
Lastly, your one-mic drums are cool! Check out the replay of our recent compression zoom for some fun things to try, smashing those drums up even more, if u want.
Awesome work, Nate!
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ok, took another pass. i THINK i captured the notes here on volumes, effects and the drums.
and i also replaced the snare hit with a more consistent hit. i went further to limit the distraction, but curious what you think now.@dana i’d love to hear your further thoughts on the drums and final stage mastering when you’re back from vacation!
@-PT many thanks for the pointers and affirmations! curious to here how this sits now. beginning still too loud? the mastering plugin might be contributing to that? as for whistler – it’s really hard for me to bury him – he (me) with that melody/counter melody were the original source / inspiration of the song on the streets of old stockholm…:) but maybe i’ll try one more go with just vocals with that melody no lyrics. or maybe the next version i connect with an instrumentalist, like a violaist…what would you replace it with?
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This reply was modified 5 months ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: forgot to attach file
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Yes, Nate!! Excellent work!
Here are a few final things that caught my ear:
- 0:35 check tuning on “inside out”
- 1:12 check tuning on whistle
- 1:36 when the live drums enter, try supplementing the backbeat with a snare sample (wanting to hear louder, more defined backbeat to match the ramped up energy/excitement of the track here)
Awesome stuff, man!
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Nate,
I really like this piece of music but can’t yet decide which version is more appropriate. My first couple listens of the second version struck me as less powerful. Based on a LUFS metering plug I use, the first iteration measured in 4.5 dB louder than the revised. You had originally said it was loud, and it is. The LUFS meter (YOULEAN LOUDNESS METER 2) also measures dynamic range. The first mix measured in with 9dB dynamic range whereas the second offering has 3.5 dB more dynamic range. Hard to tell from here if the mix adjustments you made or less mastering squish is the difference maker.
There’s some notable difference in how I react to the changes. I thought the original was more mysterious, less vocal-centric. Yes, I wanted a smidge more voice level but really should have qualified my “more vocal in the arrangement” intent. The jungle-y vibe you have created is calling out for more. It’s that compelling. Who doesn’t love some deep low end in a vocal? (A long time ago… but in this very Milky Way galaxy, I sat in the big chair for a year or so on a Barry White tour and learned the affect of 40 Hz on many females in the audience. Oddly enough, when I got home after a long summer tour and put some Barry on the turntable, my wife said something to the effect of “Turn that shit off.” Apparently, some people don’t care for the 40 Hz.)
I was hoping a subtle change that kept the mystery and power intact but gave a smidge of more vocal level. The new clap/snare has receded into the landscape, in part because of amplitude, but also its tonality. It’s a dark sound trying to own the backbeat but can’t. We went from in-your-face to hiding-in-the-background on the 2.
Do you hear the same thing I do now? Your single mic drum kit now has a whole lotta stick-on-the-drumhead attack that the squished original doesn’t. I believe the KB part you dropped in level uncovered the simultaneously occurring drums. If there were a one-knob plugin here, rather than a multitude of changes, I’d say you went a bit too far for my taste, but what do I know? I’m the guy who, in my role as stage manager at a multi-day music festival, would instruct our ever-changing emcees to promote the genre appropriate radio stations they represented and then thank the sponsors of the show. Some were stone cold pro’s, some had never spoken in front of a crowd before. I found it effective to add a calming pep talk at the last minute. I’d remind them “You have 5 minutes to entertain the crowd. Go have some fun with it!” and hand them the mic, look ‘em dead in the eyes, and say “and don’t fuck this up!” Works every time. Except Sunday night. Christian music night, Christian DJs. What I’m getting at Nate is that sometimes I misspeak.
Sorry for that whistler thing too.
😊PT
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paul – thanks so much for the additional listen and i love the story!
and forgive the delay in my reply – i read your note and then went way deep again into creative mode. not sure if where i ended up relative to these points above, but feeling done after far too many iterations :).
just submitted for distribution – will share back when it’s out!
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Nate,
Full disclosure, all of my stories are good, most of them are true.
No need to forgive the delay. I love when the muse hits and I go with it at the expense of for instance, painting the house. Chore-y kinda stuff. I look forward to hearing the final version and going back to the other iterations to hear the growth.
PT
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hey @detective and @dana !
sending positive vibrations especially this election week. circling back and sharing that old new maps is now streaming in the world. SO appreciate all the insights and feedback. i kept pushing and pushing it through many iterations after your comments. i ended up learning a ton and so grateful i took the extra time – i even mastered the thing myself. looking ahead for next step time, i had some struggles with logicpro at the tail end on and curious if you or anyone else has issues / resolves with three main topics:
1. tuning plugin tips: trying both the built-in pitch correction in logicpro and then antares autotune trial, i couldn’t figure out how to get the output dial to accurately reflect where things were supposed to be, so i still had to do everything by ear. any tips / tutorials for how to better use these tools or other tuning plugins?
2. sound quality decrease from bounce: i noticed that the bounce from logic pro wasn’t quite as punchy, especially on the high end. example: there were cool surprise harmonics from the vocals happening that would only show up on an occasional bounce. i ended up adding tracks to replicate the sound so it ended up okay, it drove me wild for several extra days. in an online course i took on studio.com, ryan tedder said he no longer used logicpro because he had this same issue of the bounce losing quality and spend hours talking to support, so ended up just switching to protools and maybe one other. i looked online for similar stories and saw a little bit here and there. avoidable or is this a real thing?
3. random blips during bounce: after lots of hunting, i figured out there may be some issue with the one of the plugins – PHAT FX – on the main snare perhaps in combination with the reverb that kept adding blips in random spots whenever i’d bounce. and then they’d become permanent in the original source. does this sound familiar and any tips on how to avoid this?thanks so much!
nate
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This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by Nate Dewart. Reason: corrected a few typos and expanded upon my questions
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This reply was modified 2 months, 1 week ago by
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YAAAY! Huge congrats on the release, @nategomoon, and great work, man! 🎉
1. For tuning, yeah, it’s hard to get the automatic pitch correction tools to do exactly what you want. Unless I’m looking for that T-Pain effect, I always do everything manually using Melodyne. You can watch my complete vocal Melodyne process in chapters 8 and 9 of the Natural Vocal Production course. Melodyne, to me, is the most flexible, most powerful pitch (and timing) correction software. It’s amazing.
2. Sound quality / Logic bounce: I saw your new thread in the MP Logic forum about this – thanks for posting that there! Curious to hear if other folks have had a similar experience. @michael and I have already weighed in there w some thoughts. 🤘
3. Plugin blips: not sure what’s going on with that and don’t know that particular plugin. But it could be worth making sure you have the most current version of the plugin (maybe a recent update addressed a “blip problem”). Also you could try raising your audio buffer size in Logic’s settings? Sometimes blips like that occur during playback when your CPU can’t keep up with demanding plugins on a low buffer setting.
Hopefully some of these suggestions will help! Keep us posted!
mixprotege.com
Grammy-nominated producer, mixer, engineer, Dana Nielsen teaches how to comp, tune, and mix natural-sounding vocals and acoustic guitar.
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This reply was modified 5 months ago by
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right on @dana thanks for these tips. really interested in checking out melodyne!
as for the blips, i did try the buffer size solution at the time of bouncing but that didn’t seem to help. hopefully just one off issue for this song. LOTS of learning from this process.
thanks again for everything. you’ve really helped fuel me with exactly what i needed. so grateful! 🙌
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My pleasure, Nate! And way to persevere and work around those pesky troubleshooting issues! 💪🤓
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