Entourage Paul Tucci
EntourageForum Replies Created
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Patrick,
This is a sweet song, I’m happy to hear that you expanded the arrangement. In fact, I was wanting to hear the “band” more. Your mix leads with the vocal upfront, never allowing the band to be equally important (to my ear) so I did this to your song to give the band’s contribution its due. See if it sounds/feels different in a good way to you.
PT
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Nate,
Superb offering first time up to bat. I think your feedback will be overwhelmingly positive.
Drums sound great regardless of the number of mics. Minimalist approach worked tonally with the low end vocal and the KB bass with swerve on it. BGV layers are so tasteful. The opening is killer. It might even be a bit too much in your face. It feels like a separate piece of music it’s so strong.
I would try -3dB down to get closer to match the impact of the actual vocal starting spot. Also that sidestick/snare/percussive element is stealing the show early on when in my mind, the spotlight ought to be on the vocal arrangement. During the verses that percussive element might be more interesting if it were not repetitive. I’d try 2 and 4 on the verses, and your current 2, 4 AND for the B part. The song is sparse so help the listener find new, treasures to hang onto and enjoy.
The vocals are intriguing but feel a little under represented at times and confused when the delayed repeat is as full frequency range as the original. Dull the repeats to avoid high freqs demanding our attention.
I want more of your vocal magic, not the whistler guy.
That half time section at 1:20 is very effective, it’s open sounding and efficient while deep grooving. Try dropping the echoing vocal to help us find the drop after the build up. Things get a little busy for my taste. If you shoot the whistling guy you’d have more sonic space to feature the BGV. I love the vocal texture that much to sacrifice the whistler. Maybe feature whistler guy in the next song.
I enjoy the song and playing the “What if” game. These are all just my observations to make it cleaner, more accessible, and better if I had the talent to make what you’ve already made.
Carry on, and metaphorically speaking, carry off the whistler and bury him somewhere in the woods.
PT
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I think we may find out that Dana will put more importance on the attack and release times of the compressor than the ratio. Too quick an attack time and the transients won’t get through leaving your music unnaturally squished. Too slow an attack time and the result will lean toward not processing the signal enough. Those sub millisecond settings available on some devices are dangerously sharp. I find the 40-50 millisecond attack time more transparent and therefore, to my ear, more musical. The longer release times of 100 (ish) milliseconds seem to compliment the 40-50 millisecond attack times allowing more control (gain reduction) but not at the expense of audibility. My recent forays into moving away from stock settings has informed my opinions. Your mileage may vary.
PT
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Jeremy,
I’m late to the party on your new offering and I think it’s toe tapping good. I can imagine all the goodness Dana was suggesting to relentlessly keep the groove moving forward. The more I hang around here the more I see his keen insight. Hell, I might even come to like reverb. 🙂
I do like the forward nature of you bass and kick sitting in front of all that ambient wall of instrumentation and vocal. I love your dynamic between the chorus and how it drops down for the verse. It’s very compelling and effective. I would offer up this perspective. The hand claps in the chorus feel too present for a couple possible reasons. They are close to leading the charge during the chorus whereas in the verses the interplay of percussion elements has me focusing in on them. Its an abrupt change distraction when the claps come in hot like they do. Secondarily, the claps are decidedly electronic. Would the party groove not be better served with real claps, humanly imperfect, sitting in the mix, but not leading the charge? I’m thinkin’ that’s how they do it on Discovery Channel.
I certainly look forward to the next iteration of this infectious song.
To the point of your second post which was heard to be “scooped out.”.
Does anyone concur that it’s mono as mono can be?
I took each version, the first, obviously stereo mix, and then the second, “scooped out” posting and ran them both through my Imaging module of Ozone. The display is a polar plot of sameness. Think of it like a Venn diagram. Whats common to both left and right channels are in the intersection of the two circles. What audio information exists only in one side lives in only that side but not in the intersection of the two. The mono version, which I contend is the state of your second post, is a straight tertical line, indicating NO DIFFERENCE between the left and right. The Stereo version, your original post, shows a different concentration of energy. There’s a bunch of energy concentrated around the middle (in both circles of the Venn diagram) but a substantial amount poking off to the extreme sides occupying the left only or right only circles of the Venn diagram. That extreme one-side-only-energy is most likely that ambience you’ve got going on. It sounds spacious. it feels luscious, but is extremely dangerous when combined to mono because of the time difference between the two. When combined to mono it gets way weird. I love the spaciousness it provides and pity the fool who listens in mono. They’re missing out. I’m not suggesting you remedy anything about this other than checking the mix in mono and then undoing that button.
PT
Happy to be back.
I kinda missed you guys
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Bar,
Yes! Walk away, hands in the air. Success. I have no idea what the song is about lyrically but it’s unimportant because the vibe is strong, guitar picking is strong, the arrangement is more clarified, and the vocal delivery is captivating and somewhat mysterious. That might could be your brand.
PT
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No, I did not move any drum hits in time but I did remove the very last side stick/snare to decouple the the soft landing of the last vocal phrases from hard time to suggest a musical retard .
PT
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Patrick,
I’m glad you dug it and were inspired to better your supposed final mix. Careful though, while pursuing perfection one can run the risk of never getting stuff released into the world. As a listener, I’ll take sentiment now versus perfectly-polished someday maybe. Though, as a creator, I’m also guilty as fuck.
So what did I do? … excellent question. I got inspired by the tenderness and the delivery of the song so I started asking myself what have I got to work with here? It’s a prayer, and your first intended listener may think it’s all cringe for a generation or so until he or she understands. So, let’s make this thing as beautiful as it can be. With the vocal out front that far it felt like a lecture rather than encouragement. With the supporting instruments back that far in the mix, the kid would metaphorically miss out on the wisdom of the village. I’m guessing you chose the kick drum to represent a heartbeat in the instrumental opening. I chose to bump it up a smidge to let the listener get it in the first couple measures. I chose to taper the bass guitar’s sustain to allow the cymbal swell and the tom fills to be uncovered, and be briefly featured going into the chorus. I tried to give the bass line a little lope rather than the repeating whole notes. Subtle stuff but it helps the song breathe dynamically. I chose gentle intensity over bombast. My intent was the polar opposite of that Alice Cooper song, Dead Babies. What a knucklehead!
To Dana’s question … Yes, both separation software to create stems and mastering on the 2 buss.
Patrick, I did run your mixed song through some AI separation software to extract the drums, bass guitar, vocal, and the AC Gt/strings/KBs into 4 stereo stems. That allowed me finer control of the mix. Neve console strip emulation and judicious use of tube saturation and EQ on all input channels to help them sound natural and intimate. Your vocal had all the closeness and breathy quality to be intimate but the “band” needed to match that level of goodness. All according to my ears of course. (We should have a Mix Protege specific acronym to say that shortcut style.)
My ST buss output channels had yet another Neve output channel emulation with a tube saturator and tape deck emulation native to my Cakewalk software and then a mastering chain inserted. I used a mid-side compressor to give the middle a 90Hz shelf, just a couple two tree dBs to add some weight to the drums and bass that lived in the middle and then cleared out just a bit of sonic space for the vocal to occupy with a little cut at 400-600 Hz. I painstakingly clip gained your vocal line by line to have it sit closer to the band’s dynamic. That was work.
A little 4:1 compression to bind mix together, a limiter to say “That’s all folks!” and the tiniest bit of parallel process digital clipping to add realism.
It’s not the specifics mentioned here that are important, it’s the reasoning behind the moves. Let that be the takeaway.
PT
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Bar,
Much as I do enjoy writing long winded comments, this time I will limit myself to three sentences. Upon further listening, I zeroed in on the density of the vocal that caught my attention in an ever so slightly jarring way. It’s the constant double tracking of the lead vocal that takes up more of the acoustic space than is warranted in this delicate (to my ear) piece.
PT
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Bar,
Those subtle changes you made make your song better, more interesting, prettier, and perhaps, take a step towards sophisticated. Those were good suggestions. I would like to offer up one also.
What if you took the thought of growing the instrumental arrangement as the song progresses as you just did, and apply it to the vocal side of the presentation also? ie. the first verse has the same vocal arrangement construct as the last verse. I think you’re missing the opportunity to use the vocal arrangement to further the story.
What if that first verse was as gentle as your intro guitars? One voice starts the song, no harmonies needed because with gentleness and sparseness first, you allow the next verse to “grow.” Set up the listeners to go “Oh, Pretty!” when the second verse kicks in with a single harmony. Perhaps rinse and repeat to make the third verse get more complex if it fits the story you’re trying to tell.
In my brain, I heard every first word of a verse naked, out there on its own. When a supporting harmony came in it meant something and carried weight, even if this bucket of a song is filled with feathers. It’s the difference that matters and will command the listeners’ ears.
To paraphrase Miles Davis…It’s not the lines you sing that matter most, it’s the lines you don’t sing that can also convey intent.
To quote Mickey Hart ” All we need is the weight of a feather to tip the balance in the favor of love.”
PT
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Nate,
I really like this piece of music but can’t yet decide which version is more appropriate. My first couple listens of the second version struck me as less powerful. Based on a LUFS metering plug I use, the first iteration measured in 4.5 dB louder than the revised. You had originally said it was loud, and it is. The LUFS meter (YOULEAN LOUDNESS METER 2) also measures dynamic range. The first mix measured in with 9dB dynamic range whereas the second offering has 3.5 dB more dynamic range. Hard to tell from here if the mix adjustments you made or less mastering squish is the difference maker.
There’s some notable difference in how I react to the changes. I thought the original was more mysterious, less vocal-centric. Yes, I wanted a smidge more voice level but really should have qualified my “more vocal in the arrangement” intent. The jungle-y vibe you have created is calling out for more. It’s that compelling. Who doesn’t love some deep low end in a vocal? (A long time ago… but in this very Milky Way galaxy, I sat in the big chair for a year or so on a Barry White tour and learned the affect of 40 Hz on many females in the audience. Oddly enough, when I got home after a long summer tour and put some Barry on the turntable, my wife said something to the effect of “Turn that shit off.” Apparently, some people don’t care for the 40 Hz.)
I was hoping a subtle change that kept the mystery and power intact but gave a smidge of more vocal level. The new clap/snare has receded into the landscape, in part because of amplitude, but also its tonality. It’s a dark sound trying to own the backbeat but can’t. We went from in-your-face to hiding-in-the-background on the 2.
Do you hear the same thing I do now? Your single mic drum kit now has a whole lotta stick-on-the-drumhead attack that the squished original doesn’t. I believe the KB part you dropped in level uncovered the simultaneously occurring drums. If there were a one-knob plugin here, rather than a multitude of changes, I’d say you went a bit too far for my taste, but what do I know? I’m the guy who, in my role as stage manager at a multi-day music festival, would instruct our ever-changing emcees to promote the genre appropriate radio stations they represented and then thank the sponsors of the show. Some were stone cold pro’s, some had never spoken in front of a crowd before. I found it effective to add a calming pep talk at the last minute. I’d remind them “You have 5 minutes to entertain the crowd. Go have some fun with it!” and hand them the mic, look ‘em dead in the eyes, and say “and don’t fuck this up!” Works every time. Except Sunday night. Christian music night, Christian DJs. What I’m getting at Nate is that sometimes I misspeak.
Sorry for that whistler thing too.
😊PT
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Roy,
I reckon I missed your latest while I was out west in July. This is so strong and so well crafted. It’s almost orchestral in its arrangement. There’s layered density yet easy to listen through to the nuance. …Yea, the hats are a bit aggro but I love it overall.
As they say here in NY, “I know a guy!” He’s (was) a whistler looking for a band. Perhaps your high hat player should meet him. 🙂
PT
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Vonnegut, huh? My English teacher wife would be proud. My early influences were actually Carlos Castaneda and Jack Kerouac.
A long time ago in a galaxy far away I did write publicaly about live audio, though I used a nom de plume because I was a bit snarky. I’ve mellowed in my old age like Obi-Wan Kenobi. Remember when Obi-Wan fought Darth Vader and had him one swing of his light saber away from death in episode 3 but walked away and let him live? That wise Jedi understood the bigger picture and later wisely said to Vader “You have no idea how powerful I will become” and let Garth slay him knowing that Darth Vader would eventually revert back to Anakin Skywalker and help restore order in the universe. That’s wisdom. I’m just trying to use my force for good at this time in my life and glad you’re diggin it. Should probably add George Lucas to my list of influences, huh? (motif alert!) I’m thinking Biden dropping out of the presidential race is a similar power move.
PT
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by Paul Tucci.
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by Paul Tucci.
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by
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Jeremy,
We’ve been patiently awaiting this next update and it’s been worth it. Animals came back stronger, cleaner and more precise despite the fact you actually added more musical information. We can listen deeper into the ambient layers now, especially that we’re back to the modern stereophonic sound. (I had to. 🙂 That percussion ensemble feels like a well oiled machine. Not in any mechanical, non musical way, more so like a flock of birds that fly as one, changing directions simultaneously or a school of fish that swim in formation to fend off the bigger predator fish by appearing larger than life. Apparently, they’ve been watching the Discovery Channel too.
I LOVE all those added “Uh, oh, oh ohs” that were suggested. There’s something very primal about call and response that speaks to me. It’s not like I grew up as the son of a black share cropper in rural Mississippi or anything like that. To the contrary, I was an underachieving, surfing, stoned teen living in a waterfront home on Long Island. Zillow says that house is now worth a million but that’s not relevant to my point which is this:
There are 5 instances of the chorus, each one with the 5 syllable call “We are animals” answered by the 9 syllable response “Uh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh oh.” That’s pretty wordy when competing with the ambient layers of synths and even more vocals. On the third listen I heard the muse whisper something like “What if Jeremy just uses a 4 syllable response “Uh oh oh oh” in the first two choruses? It’s hooky as hell and allows the bass line to finish the phrase. In the third chorus, which is a breakdown chorus, try the full complement of nine syllables to make the phrase unexpectedly new and exciting.” She’s very loquacious and finished her musing with “Writer’s choice on the final two choruses.” As she danced away, and she was a bootyfull dancer like you had hoped, the damn AI sand worm that popped up in a previous discussion made a quick lunch of her. Pity, I was diggin’ her suggestions.
PT
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This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by Paul Tucci. Reason: grammar
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This reply was modified 1 month, 1 week ago by
